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Thanks for being up-front with the numbers. I wish more people were.

OK - here's what I *really* want to know. How many lottery tickets can you buy with $18,500 (less fees)?

Posted by: Scoplaw at April 22, 2004 10:59 AM

Don't forget to look into government forgiveness programs -- a lot of times if you're willing to do public interest work in an area that needs them (if there are any such areas), the government will forgive some of your loans in exchange for a certain term of service. I know they do this for other fields, it might be a possibility for law as well.

Posted by: Justin at April 22, 2004 09:22 PM

You say that law school is beginning to make a Ph.D. in English seem cheap. But what would you have done with a Ph.D. in English? Public interest lawyers don't make a lot of money compared to other lawyers, but they are on average significantly wealthier than English Ph.Ds.

Posted by: Larry at April 22, 2004 11:28 PM

And people ask why law students end up in big firms if they don't like the work! I agree -- the idea of going into public interest work with a debt that large is very discouraging. It is no wonder so many people end up in the large firms.

The idea that graduate school is some sort of pristine, purely academic experience that exists untouched by money rather than a market-driven entity as driven by profit as any good business is beyond me. Participation in rankings is mostly an attempt to get free advertising dollars as far as I can tell. They sell us a product, an education, and we pay for it. Schools use all tools at their disposal (rankings, bar passage rates, job placement, nebulous slights at other schools, etc.) to get students who will pay.

And, as your numbers show, boy do they make us pay. Thanks for posting them. I don't necessarily have a problem with the market-driven approach to education so long as students enter as educated consumers, aware of what the costs really mean. I think schools gloss over the money in a downright disingenous manner, however, and so honestly reporting numbers is at least a little help for the students out there considering law school.

Posted by: transmogriflaw at April 23, 2004 12:35 AM

Scoplaw: Lottery tickets! Someone with stats knowledge and time on their hands should run those numbers. What are your odds of getting a good return on $18k worth of lottery tickets? How about $120k? $170k? Of course, the gubment will give you the $18.5k so that's a good place to start. If you win anything, don't forget the little people.

Justin: Yeah, that's a great idea. GW also has an LRAP (Loan Repayment Assistance Program) that I'll definitely be looking into. That could make the debt much more manageable.

Larry: Lots of English profs make $40-60k/year, and even if you don't get a tenure-track position you can generally put together $30k/year as an adjunct or whatever. I hope you're right and these numbers are low for public interest law...

Transmogriflaw: While well-informed student/"consumers" are certainly preferable to ignorant ones, the business model of education (in law or anything else) is still pathetically impoverished. If law schools weren't degree factories that cared mostly about generating revenue, would they produce thousands of lawyers every year who care first and foremost about their own bottom line?

Posted by: ambimb at April 23, 2004 05:44 AM

$40-60k/yr upon graduation? Are you sure that's a starting salary? Sounds more like what you get if you've been there a while.

Northeastern is all over this - we all want to be public interest lawyers, and all have huge debt. The school is also too poor to forgive it. It's a problem. There are lots of workshops about how to work at a firm just until your loans are paid off, etc.

Posted by: monica at April 23, 2004 08:17 AM

Yeah, well, like I said, I'd be *lucky* to make that. I think those starting ranges might be fair for lots of gov't jobs, but you're right -- probably most real PI jobs start a lot lower.

Don't you just love how schools try to massage this issue w/workshops and photocopied handouts about grants and fellowships and whatnot? Hey, here's an idea: Charge less freaking tuition!!

Posted by: ambimb at April 23, 2004 08:29 AM

This reminds me: We need a new law school -- The Co-Op Law School or something. It would be located in a place where rents are cheap. The facilities would be minimal, with emphasis on function, not form. Professors would be public interest law practitioners who have decided to teach for a pittance (say, $30-60k/year). Or maybe we could somehow get people to teach for free, as a public service. Tuition would vary based on annual expenses; students would basically only pay whatever it costs to run the place. The mission of the school would be to produce great public interest lawyers. The sign on the door would say: "Bite Me, BigLaw!" ;-)

Posted by: ambimb at April 23, 2004 08:34 AM

AmbImb, I don't think that people should graduate only caring about the bottom line. The whole point of education is to learn to think, to learn new perspectives, etc.

But I guess I prefer the business model of education to what I consider the prior model of education, where everybody pretended that any discussion of finances whatsoever was terribly tacky and therefore managed to keep out any students who had to worry about money. I think the prior model kept as many if not more students away from an education because only those students with family subsidies could seriously consider education. Families unfamiliar with the system couldn't even get a sense of the expense, and only those families that could afford to subsidize a member's lack of income for X years could send a kid to college, let alone law school. Furthermore, schools would admit those who, while not charging them a lot at the time, would give them a lot of money later on. Hence, schools kept minorities and women out because, among many other reasons, they weren't good investments

There are certainly huge, gaping holes in the business model, but in a sense I consider it more honest and straightforward than the prior model. I think the prior model was actually a business model -- no matter how they try, schools can't pretend away market economics -- just one that was closed to all but the wealthiest, most elite, white and male members of society.

I dislike the disingenuousness of the loan programs at many schools. I think that their marketing borders on fraudulent. But that doesn't mean I want to go back to the older system that pretended money didn't exist, and, not coincidentally, wouldn't have even admitted me, being female.

Posted by: transmogriflaw at April 23, 2004 09:58 AM

How, when, and were do I apply for Co-Op Law School?? :)

Posted by: m at April 23, 2004 11:33 AM

FYI - In case you didn't know (most people don't), you can appeal your financial aid award if you aren't satisfied. Once I caught on, I did it 2L and 3L year and ended up with a nice big fat grant in the end.

Posted by: Scott at April 23, 2004 01:14 PM

The closest thing we have to a co-op law school is Northeastern. (I think it's totally funny that you came up with that.)

The professors are recent practitioners, as well as awesome scholars and teachers. The emphasis is on public interest lawyering, and a significant part of the first-year is spent on team and grop-work, in addition to our substantive classes.

After the first year, students do every other quarter away from school at an internship. Since half the upper-years are away from school at any time, this reduces costs by a third. Unfortunately, or fortunately, the school still has a high standard for its facilities, so the tuition is not too much cheaper than elsewhere. And we're in Boston, which can be good (lots of resources) but bad (quite expensive).

Oh yeah, and it's not competitive because we don't have grades. Our internship evaluations become part of our transcripts - so at the end of three years, we've each had 4 full-time jobs (instead of 2), and potential employers get to read a detailed account of our performance.

And we're accredited, and quite respected in PI circles. After a period of closure, the school was restarted in the 1960s by professors coming across the river from Harvard, because they were so fed up with the stuffy academic atmosphere over there, that didn't train students to really be lawyers or to care about how the law affects people.

Can you tell I really love this school? :)

Posted by: monica at April 24, 2004 10:31 AM

Northeastern sounds awesome! But like you say, it's still not cheap, and that's a major problem. Why should law school be so expensive? It shouldn't be. Are there ABA requirements that force schools like Northeastern (if there are any others) to charge students so much? Possibly that's part of it.

More thoughts on this after finals, I'm thinking...

Posted by: ambimb at April 25, 2004 07:08 AM

I have a great deal of respect for Northeastern, but the bottom line of almost all private schools (and many public schools) is still tough to deal with (assuming you want PI). I mean, does anyone think that a) the cost of tuition isn’t going to increase and b) the income of PI lawyers will increase enough to keep pace? Honestly, I think inertia is going to make going into PI tougher and tougher until there’s a glaring crisis.

I like the Co-op idea.

I'd also love to see some program where you pay nothing up front but send a certain percentage of your post-graduation income directly to the school for the next 10-20 years. You could tweak the numbers by putting in tiers and ceilings and floors, but I’ll bet you the burden would be less on people starting out, you’d gain a hell of a lot of flexibility, and the school would make more money, long haul (no interest/servicing fees going to third parties.) Essentially, it would be like a graduated income tax from the school.

Posted by: Scoplaw at April 26, 2004 08:14 AM

that sounds like student loans, man. :)

one reason i've heard about how high tuition is (for both undergraduate and law schools) is that everyone is expected to go to college, so they're really competitive. and for institutions outside of the academic ivy league, the only way to compete is with cool faculty (that cost a lot) and facilities. so that's why not-so-academic schools have like wireless all over campus and million-dollar rec centers with climbing walls and swimming pools and athletics and whatnot.

Posted by: monica at April 27, 2004 10:10 AM