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Choosing a public interest law school
A reader wrote in recently with a dilemma: He has been offered a “full-ride” scholarship at a school at the higher end of the top 50 in the U.S. News rankings, or no aid but admission at an upper top-20 school. He'd like to do international public interest law related to poverty issues. Which school should he choose? Also, more generally, what factors should he look at for each school to compare them and make this decision?
If you have any thoughts, please share. For starters, here's a slightly edited version of my response to this reader:
First: Congratulations! Getting a full-ride to a top-50 program is an awesome accomplishment!
Second: Knowing what I know now after two years of law school, I would definitely take a full-ride at a top 50 school with a very solid reputation in my desired area of specialty. No question. Why? Because my impression has been that school rank or prestige are probably helpful—even in public interest law—but the difference between upper top-20 and upper top-50 is just not worth the $90-$150k dollar difference involved in a choice like yours. That said, I really don't know what a PI employer (esp. one in international poverty law, for example) would do when faced with a selection of candidates from these schools. My guess is that, most things being equal, the employer would likely want to hire someone from the higher ranked school. Yet, it wouldn't be that simple because you've obviously already distinguished yourself enough to get this scholarship, and I bet whatever earned you that (your previous work in the field, I'm guessing) would also earn you special attention from employers.
So, another way to put this: You're clearly shoulders above the average upper top-50 student, which is why you got the scholarship. That distinction will show through to employers, so I would say your career chances at the upper top-50 school will be nearly as good (if not exactly as good) as at the upper top-20 school. If you were going into BigLaw, the choice would be much harder. But in PI law, my impression is that school rank just isn't that huge a factor. Your resume will be strong from either school so employers will give you a serious look, either way.The quality of your legal training probably won't vary much between the two. Graduating with zero debt (or very little -- I assume “full ride” includes room and board) is huge because it makes you more flexible -- you'll be able to consider a wider variety of jobs w/out making your heavy debt load a major factor in your career decisions. From where I sit, your choice is clear: I would choose the full ride at the upper top-50 school.
HOWEVER, I'm just a 2L and what do I know? Not so much. I'm just speaking for me. You may have different considerations. How do you feel about the possible debt you'd accrue at the top-20 school? Do you see any differences in the two programs (besides the obvious factors of cost and location) that make you lean one way or the other? You may have tried this already, but what if you did this: Remove cost from the equation; assume both schools would cost the same. Which would you attend and why? Now remove cost AND rank from the equation—which would you choose? Doing this will force you to focus on other, possibly more important factors, such as:
- Classes: Look at the courses offered at each school and make a list of 8-10 courses you think you'd really like to take. Does one school have more classes that sound great? Also, call the registration people and ask how often your most desired classes are offered. Many schools list a number of courses in their curriculum materials that are actually only offered rarely. If that's the case, you may choose a school partly hoping to take one or two classes that won't even be offered in the two years you'll be there and taking electives (you probably won't get electives in your first year). The registration people should be able to tell you if this is the case.
- Faculty: Then look at who teaches the classes that really appeal to you. Read their bios. Do any of them sound like people who have done things you want to do and/or who are connected to institutes, nonprofits, gov't orgs or NGOs that you'd like to get connected with? Look at what they've published; you may not be able to read much of it, but you could skim some of the papers and/or read abstracts (many are online via SSRN and other places). Are any of these people doing interesting work? Do any of them make you say, “Yeah, I really would love to know that person and maybe have him/her as my mentor”? In your first year, faculty won't matter nearly as much, so look beyond to the electives you'd want to take.
- Journals: You may have no interest in being on a journal, so this may not be an issue. But if you have even a vague interest, you should look at the journals at each school and also at how you qualify to be on staff of one. If there's one that especially appeals to you (like the “Journal of International Poverty Law” or something), you should contact someone on that journal (phone or email or whatever) to find out how you could get on staff. Do they choose based on grades or writing competition, or both? If grades are a factor, how big a factor? How competitive is it? How prestigious is the journal in its field? Being on a journal in a subject area in which you want to work can be very fun and very helpful to your education b/c you'll read and write on specialized topics in that area.
- Clinics: Clinics are important to PI law and if either school has a clinic or two that grabs you, you should give that school extra points. If there's a clinic that would let you do exactly what you think you want to do, that's a huge bonus. It'll look great to employers and again, it will be excellent training for you. If you want to go further with this, call the clinic director and ask to speak with students who are in or have been in the clinic. Then ask those students what they did in the clinic and what they are going to do for their summer jobs or careers, and whether the clinic was helpful or worthwhile, etc.
- Career services: Does either school have someone one staff who is dedicated to helping PI students get PI jobs in summers and after graduation? GW has a person who does this as part of her job. This is nice, but it means that there's no one working full time year-round to maintain connections with public interest employers, research jobs and connections for you, and generally help you in your PI career building. In contrast, Georgetown has an entire PI office dedicated to this sort of thing. The more resources the school gives to this, the better it will be for you. In addition to what the career services office tells you, try to talk to students who are doing things you think you'll want to do. The career services people should be able to give you a couple of names you could email so you could ask about their satisfaction w/the school's career services, etc.
- Summer funding: As a PI student, you are not so likely to find summer jobs that pay; therefore, it's good to know what grants will be available to you in the summers. For example, GW gave out $165k this summer, spread among approximately 50 people; at least 100 people applied for this pool, meaning only 50% who wanted funding got it. You should be able to find those kinds of numbers for each school. This shouldn't be a deal-breaker factor for either school, but it's one more piece of data that might help you make a choice.
Posted April 24, 2005 10:10 AM | advice law school
I would also add that the student should look at extra-curricular opportunities that will be available during the school year. I have found that my public interest job interviews have been much more interested in my public interest experiences (legal or not) than other non public interest jobs.
This shows continuing commitment to general area you want to work in, shows your genuine interest in the area, and is also good experience for you.
I would imagine that a public interest employer would consider these factors very strongly, so that a lower ranked school that via location or otherwise had more meaningful opportunities in this manner would, in my opinion, be more attractive.
I chose my current school over some better ranked ones because I wanted to be in DC, and have noticed that pay off in terms of opportunities during the school year, as well as in the facilitation of finding summer work in the area. It helps that my school is known for the specific area I want to work in.
Speaking of opportunities, I can't think of a better one than zero or little debt.
One way to mitigate any negative effects you feel came from your lower ranked school is to put your award of a scholarship on your resume. It is a significant accomplishment -- it shows the school has great faith in your abilities -- and deserves to be on there on solely that basis. It also helps to communicate your choice of schools.
Posted by: luminous at April 24, 2005 10:44 AM
I'd like to echo and affirm mowabb's advice, particularly with respect to considering all the other factors (cost issues aside). It's three years of your life that you are talking about. Make sure you'll be happy with how you are spending them. Nothing will be perfect, nothing will come without a sacrifice, but if the debt load was the only thing inspiring you to go to the other school, I'm not sure that should be enough to drive the decision. On the other hand, other things being largely equal I think it would be a big deal.
The other thing to realize is that things can change. a) Make sure the scholarship truly lasts all three years, and b) Your interests may change, or at least evolve, particularly as you get other opportunities to explore. The nice thing about a low debt load is that it keeps options open, so it seems that the choice of school itself should be one that keeps options open as well.
Also, one other piece of advice I haven't seen yet but I would recommend: VISIT BOTH SCHOOLS. Go, hang out on campus, visit departments you think you would need to work with, find out about the housing situation, find out about campus activities, check out the neighborhood, etc. Go see what each place feels like, and when you close your eyes and imagine being there next year, pick the one where it feels the best.
Posted by: Cathy at April 24, 2005 10:53 AM
Well put Luminous and Cathy. Extracurriculars can be very important and I agree -- DC has loads of those in just about every public interest area. I can't believe I forgot to mention campus visit -- absolutely invaluable if it's possible to do it. Also, I should mention that the person asking the question has already compared the two schools on the basis of LRAP. That should be a huge consideration for anyone considering a public interest career, but in this case, it only matters for the one school where this person would have to pay.
Posted by: ambimb at April 24, 2005 12:04 PM
If one school seems like a clear winner but for the money issue, probably go with that school and just trust, like a lot of us do, that you'll figure out how to pay it back.
But don't underestimate the money issue. Yes, law school is three years of your life. But it's only three years. If you get into more debt than you can handle with the type of job you want to have, you're going to spend a hell of a lot more time than that stressed about money, or working in a job you don't want just to be able to pay it back.
I went with the cheaper school that probably has fewer public interest opportunities. Sometimes I question that decision, but then I tally up how much I've borrowed so far, compared to how much I'd have borrowed at the other school, and it brings it into perspective!
Posted by: Jane at April 24, 2005 12:36 PM
I would absolutely take the full-ride. Yes, a higher ranked school might open a few more doors. However, do *not* underestimate the freedom that coming out of school with no debt gives you. The freedom of choice that comes with being debt free is astonishing...
Posted by: Dave! at April 24, 2005 02:03 PM
I'd also go for the money. I was accepted to a top 50 school but instead I went two separate tier three schools. (transfer student) Why? Because I came to law school specificly to help the poor. As a general rule, the go-to-the-highest-ranked-school-game is for those who are interested in selling their soul to BigLaw. I will graduate in very good financial shape. Everything I want to do is available for me as much is it would be if I went to a top 50 school. In other words, my advice is know what you want to do with your law degree. If you can do that regardless of where you get your education, then why spend the extra money?
For example, if your dream is to be a law professor, you better be going to the highest ranked school possible. But if you want to be a PD, then go to law school wherever you want.
Posted by: JR at April 24, 2005 03:12 PM
I wanted to second Dave!'s point. The significantly-lesser debt load will be a tremendous blessing that I do not think will be offset by the prestige of the higher-ranked school, especially for someone who really wants to do public interest work. The other factors listed in the main post are still important, though, especially public interest opportunities that are available through the law school or in the same community.
Posted by: Tim Hadley at April 24, 2005 03:13 PM
Great advice from everyone. I chose the school that came out to be the cheapest (and has a great loan repayment program) because I knew that I wanted to do public interest and I didn't even want the possibility of someday thinking, "Maybe I should go to a big firm for a few years to make a dent in this debt." And, in public interest, I really don't think ranking means as much as it does at the big firms. I'd also second everyone who has mentioned location and local opportunites - it's much easier to make contacts that are nearby your lawschool. If you want to study maritime law, you don't pick a landlocked law school. Think about where you'd like to work, both geographically and what organization you'd like to work for, and let that factor into your decision too.
And good luck with whatever decision you make!
Posted by: blondie at April 24, 2005 05:41 PM
As the head of a public interest organization at a top 2nd tier school who is also in the top 5% of the class and intending to do BigLaw AND who gave up a top 20 school for this one because of scholarship money, I would say:
Clinics, clinics, clinics. If you're sincerely interested in public interest law, figure out which school will give you access to the kind of professional opportunities you're interested in while in school. That kind of proven commitment to public interest can't be beat (plus you get *ungraded* credit for it).
Even if you wind up being uninterested in a PI career, the kinds of jobs that will accept you only because of the pedigree of your law school aren't likely the kind of places you'd like to work. BigLaw is a BigPlace; different firms have different attitudes towards us lefty types, and I figured that the top 20 wouldn't give me any better of a chance at the place I wanted to be than a top slot in a Tier 2 school.
Posted by: BigShot @ Tier 2 at April 24, 2005 06:24 PM
As a graduating 3L looking for a job in the public interest, I say: Do what the others are telling you. The name of my school got me in the door to some places, but it was my PD experience that got my the second interview, and it was my utter lack of available clinics and relevant classes that didn't get me past the second round of a lot of interviews. And oh, the debt. Only now do I regret taking this much on.
Posted by: Womanofthelaw at April 24, 2005 06:34 PM
One thing that has helped me is that I don't have debt to repay. I don't care where I move, because the cost of moving won't be much of an issue. I can apply anywhere that I want to apply for public interest type jobs.
Another benefit was that during the summers I didn't have to work at a big law type job just to make back money I had lost to the school. I spent my summers doing human rights works both in the US and abroad. It was a luxury I could not have had if I was spending 30K a year at school.
I know that prestige is nice, but I think having a law degree and a good amount of experience will get you really far. I know that the experience of work that I had in human rights/immigration work is something that matters more to the firm that employed me than the name of my school.
It's a tough call though.
Posted by: Curtis at April 24, 2005 09:10 PM
I definitely agree with ambiv's advice.
From the description, I'm assuming the person is considering AU as the higher end of the top 50 school. If that's the case, it's a fantastic choice since he wants to go into public interest international. We're a top 5 international school and definitely have a focus on public interest law (with a fantastic EJF fund). Wrapping up my 1L year, I can't speak enough kind words about the school (except its location, which is lame) -- and even though we're not a top 20, I've found numerous opportunities and chances for success here at AU. And I'm paying for this school, so I can't recommend it enough when if you can go here for free.
If he's not talking about AU...well then he should be!
Posted by: tony at April 25, 2005 11:55 AM
Take the money and limit your opportunities or don't take the money and limit your opportunities? Sounds like people have it right there. Which is why I say, go to the best damn sports show, I mean shool you, you got into. You never know if you really will still want to do public interest law. If you know you want to be a lawyer, go to the best school you got into. If you are still unsure about even being a lawyer, then take the money and go for free and figure it out. It would suck to go to the higher law school and not want to do law in the end. But if the higher law school is worth its salt it will pay its costs back later. And what is wrong with big law anyways? So you work there for a couple years, you suck it up and pay back all your loans. Then you are debt free and you have the better school name on your resume. Then go save the world.
Posted by: Reckless Murder at April 26, 2005 11:21 PM
You forgot to mention loan repayment programs. Remember that at anmy halfway decent school, PI types don't actually end up paying back much of their loans. I turned down GULC full-ride for Harvard with no money, because I know that they'll pick up the tab for most of my loans if I do go into PI.
Posted by: yeah at April 28, 2005 06:29 PM
